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1.0 RC* Updates

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dcode

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Post 13.06.2012, 19:40

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

ghostbusters wrote:Tnx, finally fixed "no send creep" bug :)

Are you sure it is?
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Post 13.06.2012, 19:40

Re: Re: Update 1.0 RC21

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ALT

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Post 13.06.2012, 20:15

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

ALT wrote:There is a problem with the new skill hiding... the games use skill limits, but i have no idea what is my skill. Also i found it useful to see... if < 1000 = total uber noob, no worth ally. if 1000 = troll, or just new, if >1100 average maybe useful ally, if >1200 good ally.

I hope you didnt ignore my message ^ sent it just before you replied...
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dcode

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Post 13.06.2012, 20:17

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

You can see your own skill at your player profile. It's just that it's hidden in the game for the reasons noted in the first post :)
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ALT

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Post 13.06.2012, 20:31

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

dcode wrote:You can see your own skill at your player profile. It's just that it's hidden in the game for the reasons noted in the first post :)

How about my latter points? you ignored them totally. xp doesnt tell a thing about how good player it is. 80% of players are <1200 skill anyways, so showing skill for only those who are good, makes people to suspect 80% of players as total noobs now, i already got 2 guys asking am i good, before rarely asked.

"trying hard" <- since when? seen noobs who stay noobs for months, they just never learn. but they can have 1500 xp and 900 skill or lower :| and i wouldnt know that until game starts. and that isnt funny. now its just harder to balance teams, just guessing how good they are.
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dcode

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Post 13.06.2012, 20:41

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

ALT wrote:
dcode wrote:You can see your own skill at your player profile. It's just that it's hidden in the game for the reasons noted in the first post :)

How about my latter points? you ignored them totally. xp doesnt tell a thing about how good player it is. 80% of players are <1200 skill anyways, so showing skill for only those who are good, makes people to suspect 80% of players as total noobs now, i already got 2 guys asking am i good, before rarely asked.

"trying hard" <- since when? seen noobs who stay noobs for months, they just never learn. but they can have 1500 xp and 900 skill or lower :| and i wouldnt know that until game starts. and that isnt funny. now its just harder to balance teams, just guessing how good they are.

There is still the skillbar at the right of a player's name. This bar is drawn from skill, not from XP. Of course it just gives you an idea on how good a player is, not the detailed value, but imho this is good enough. Also, if you create a game with a specific skill limit, you can be assured that noone will join with less or more skill.

My point remains that it's better for new or casual players not to be remembered and thus demotivated of their initially reducing skill all the time. Not all players will be, that's fore sure, but some may and I want to make the game more fun also for those to play.
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ALT

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Post 13.06.2012, 20:56

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

dcode wrote:There is still the skillbar at the right of a player's name. This bar is drawn from skill, not from XP. Of course it just gives you an idea on how good a player is, not the detailed value, but imho this is good enough.

I have never found that bar useful, its hard to read.

dcode wrote:Also, if you create a game with a specific skill limit, you can be assured that noone will join with less or more skill.

But i dont or it takes too long to start a game, sometimes i start game with 2 noobs and 2 pros, so its balanced, but now i have no idea how to do that, basically everyone looks like noobs now. There are very few 1200 skill players, for reasons unknown, maybe they dont like team games? mostly its <1200 skill players there, 90% of the time...

dcode wrote:My point remains that it's better for new or casual players not to be remembered and thus demotivated of their initially reducing skill all the time. Not all players will be, that's fore sure, but some may and I want to make the game more fun also for those to play.

That is true i felt same at beginning, but hiding it just creates more problems. A solution could be that the skill will be counted only for the last 20 games or so, which makes it less frustrating to get your skill up again, and maybe make the skill rise faster if you win 2 games in row etc, so it motivates players more.
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dcode

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Post 13.06.2012, 21:11

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

ALT wrote:That is true i felt same at beginning, but hiding it just creates more problems. A solution could be that the skill will be counted only for the last 20 games or so, which makes it less frustrating to get your skill up again, and maybe make the skill rise faster if you win 2 games in row etc, so it motivates players more.

Every intrusion into the ELO system will make it de-/inflationary and that of course is not what we want. It's hard to find the right compromise for both sides, meaning those who insist on the few extra digits of the numerical skill value below 1200 and those who might be demotivated by being remembered of their own skill progress in the beginning.

I am always looking for a better idea but I don't see one currently. Maybe it would be an option to reduce the visibility limit to 1100?
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Pezinator

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Post 13.06.2012, 21:40

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

Why not reduce the limit to 1050. Normal beginners have less than 1000 skill so 1050 might be ok
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ALT

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Post 13.06.2012, 22:14

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

dcode wrote:Every intrusion into the ELO system will make it de-/inflationary and that of course is not what we want. It's hard to find the right compromise for both sides, meaning those who insist on the few extra digits of the numerical skill value below 1200 and those who might be demotivated by being remembered of their own skill progress in the beginning.

I am always looking for a better idea but I don't see one currently. Maybe it would be an option to reduce the visibility limit to 1100?

Yeah but it should somehow notice that the player "got it" and starts winning games, so his skill should increase more rapidly then, because usually the players just create another account to get ahead on skill, if you have 700 skill, its just easier to create another account, and they probably will.

Instead of hiding the skill at certain skill level, the best approach would be an icon displaying a skill:
<800 = really rusty star
800-999 = rusty star
1000 = smiling baby face icon
1001-1050 = plastic star
1051-1150 = bronze star
1151-1200 = silver star
1201-1300 = gold star
>1300 = diamond star

Basically all you need to do is to switch the rank stars/stripes to represent the skill rather than XP, then we can figure out it easier... but what are the steps for each stripe/star in that? its needed to have 50 steps at the beginning because it matters. after around 1050 skill its easier to see it, but noobs bounce around 950-1050 a lot so it needs to have different icon, after 1050 it stabilizes more.
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dcode

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Post 13.06.2012, 22:23

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

There is already a constant inside the ELO system so that gaining (but also losing) skill in the beginning is much easier than at the top of the highscores.

We use a rational one: k=30-skill/100 capped at k=2, meaning k=20 at 1000 skill and k=2 from 2800 upwards => It's 10 times harder to gain a skill point at 2800 than at 1000. At skill=0 it would hypothetically be k=30 and thus be 15 times easier.
More information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
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ALT

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Post 13.06.2012, 22:41

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

How about changing the rank icon (stars/stripes) to display skill instead of XP...? the current skill bar should display XP IMO, because XP is less important and that bar is hard to read.

Also, the noobs wont get +50 score even if they won a better player, they get maybe +20 max, +30 if lucky. But that would mean everyone else is higher skill than he, like +200 higher skill... those kind of games are rare, so i think noobs will get maybe +8 skill each game, which means to get from 700 to 1200 takes around 60 games won... and they wont win every game of course... so its 180 games probably. Well, i dont know, check some dude who has had 700 skill and then got it above 1100 level, if you can find any :)
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dcode

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Post 13.06.2012, 22:47

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

Imho there are still enough games to play in, even if your skill is low. And it's exactly the thought behind the change, that someone who might never get his skill to the upper level isn't bugged with that fact all the time.
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ALT

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Post 13.06.2012, 23:08

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

dcode wrote:Imho there are still enough games to play in, even if your skill is low. And it's exactly the thought behind the change, that someone who might never get his skill to the upper level isn't bugged with that fact all the time.

What if i dont want to play with a noob with skill 700? i have no way of knowing is it 700 or 1000, there is a big difference, with skill 1000 i might have a chance, but with 700... its worse than playing alone.

yes i could set skill limit etc... but it never remembers the setting i need to type it ever single time again. and sometimes i could play with those ubernoobs anyways. it really depends.
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Post 13.06.2012, 23:19

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

Use the skilllimit, kicking player out of the game for your lasyness is not nice.
Use the skilllimt.
Use it.
Your problems are away when you use the skilllimit.
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ALT

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Post 14.06.2012, 11:38

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

but i always forget to type it...
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dcode

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Post 14.06.2012, 18:25

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

1.0 RC22

Skill limits and other settings entered for creating the previous game are now remembered by the game client. Also, when joining to a game, the skill bar is extra large in the game preview box (on the right above the player listing).

When placing a bet as a spectator, the total number of bets for a player is now shown next to his lives.

On diconnect, the server tries to send a reason for what has gone wrong in the disconnect message. You'll find that in the logs, but it will only be present if in fact the server closed the connection and it has not just been lost for another reason.
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ALT

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Post 14.06.2012, 19:33

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

Why is the bet time so short? hard to bet players who you dont even know, it would be better if it was 4mins, so i can actually see how they build, it can tell a lot, but not everything, so it stays a little bit mystery still, but at least i can filter off the noobs and have a chance :D
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manuel

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Post 14.06.2012, 19:35

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

...and watch the hole game on Speedvector :)
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ALT

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Post 14.06.2012, 19:39

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

indeed :D maybe it could be adjusted by the length of the map then? long maps it takes so long that i cant see a single tower built... (for example that jungle team map).

also, why cant i bet on players if i am one of the players? that would be fun too.

btw do i have to stay in the game to the end to know if i won the bet or not? could the bets be listed in the player page so i can brag how good i am at betting the winner? :D

Also, it would be good to see the bet timer somewhere, so i know when is the last time to bet :D

ALSO... could the bet works some way like: "/bet 1" where the number is player ID which would start from top left and end on bottom right? its so hard to type some players names :D

Edit: what would be super fun is to choose the amount of XP you want to bet for, could be limited though, 5-20 maybe? then it would show how much XP each player has been bet for.
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ALT

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Post 14.06.2012, 19:56

Re: Update 1.0 RC21

OMG!!!! i joined a survivor game, and i bet the winner, but i lost the bet after all! looks like you cant bet on survivor :S fix it please :D
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