Separating the boys from the men - for good: Ranked Queues

[dcode]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to have ranked games for a while already and I am currently working something out to make that happen. First I like to explain you the problems of the current custom game only setup:

1. Quite often, new players who are not yet fully aware of the skill algorithm, are beaten down by better players. This usually results in unnatural glitches in the ELO rating of both sides.
2. Even if a player knows the skill algorithm very well, it requires some amount of trial and error (e.g. setting the skill limit exactly the way to actually get 3 opponents who are near their own skill rating) - for every new game.
3. Generating a skill value for every player may be discouraging for those who are not as good as the average yet because their skill keeps dropping.
4. Generating skill values from custom games creates clustered skill ranges because a group of players, espacially in the top 1%, only level against each other and/or beats down new players regulary to obtain fresh skill points for the first.

Finding a solution for these problems is not an easy task, though. It requires some deeper changes in the way you level up your skill in general. I want to explain my current approach to you:

1. I want to remove the skill calculation from custom games entirely so that there are XP only.
2. Instead I will add a new button for different kinds of ranked queues starting with "Ranked AVA: Tournament"
3. When you click the button, you'll be added to the matchmaking queue on the server that uses an algorithm to match other players to you and finally establish a balanced and exciting game.
4. As soon as a match is found it will start up - in the case of "Ranked AVA: Tournament" with a random tournament map, random player positions and playing "All vs. All".
5. Leaving a game will set you game over, skill will always be calculated. Leaving games may also result in disabling ranked queues for you for a while, let's say 10 minutes, before you can join another ranked game.
6. To make sure to make it balanced, there are maximum skill difference limits. For the beginning I might set the maximum skill difference to the appropriate value to gain or lose 15 skill points on win or defeat max. - but that's quite a random pick that might require to be adjusted,

So, in short, only ranked games that have been established via the matchmaking queue, will result in visible skill changes. However, to make this work it will be required to make the matchmaking process the "visual" default over custom games, which of course will still be possible but might be present in a sub-tab. There are several advantages of this approach:

1. If you don't like to play competetive, e.g. just casually with some friends, you just don't play ranked and will receive XP only.
2. If you like to get better in your gameplay, you play ranked to find equal opponents in balanced matches. The queue mostly prevents you from intendendly being beaten down by better players usually.
3. Clustered skill will be somewhat limited and it will be easier to walk up the skill line if you successively better your gameplay.
4. New possibility: Run a play-off tournament every season

Please let me know what you think about this approach. If you have any ideas on how to improve it, just leave me a comment

Cheers
dc

[krunx]

I want to remove the skill calculation from custom games entirely so that there are XP only.

I think this is a bad idea! Also in custom games should be evaluated with Skill.

[dcode]

Of course it would be possible to evaluate skill in custom games, but as a hidden score for a e.g. "Normal AVA" queue in the future. I'd like to start with 1 (Ranked AVA: Tournament), max 2 (maybe Normal AVA: All maps) queues in the beginning.

[Pezinator]

I am not completely sure about this change yet. Up to now I don't really like it. If I may sum up your post in a few words. You may want to make games in which you can only earn xp. In these game you can choose who you are playing with and you want to make games where you can earn xp and skill. In these games you cannot choose who you are playing with.
Ok I like the idea that you play with players you don't know and have equal skill. The only problem is that if someone is playing with a twink you have to play against him and can't leave. Another problem is that some average players can't play against good players if the wont to earn skill. I for example like it if a game is really hard and I know that I'll propably loose that game. But that's not a problem cause I don't loose many skill and even I loose I had an exciting game. If you ask me I would simply add the new random mode and leave the other like they are. Maybe you could simply make a skill limit. That would have to same effect.

ps: pls excuse if I have any spelling or grammatical mistakes in the text

I think it is a good start to renew the Skill-System and above all: modernize the Gaming-experience!!

In my opinion it is a very good idea to divide into two Ranking-Systems.
That would help a lot to differenciate good Players from Skillfarmers (especially in the qualification of the League (?) ).

1. But I'd suggest to let the player decide their upwards Skill-limit to search for.
Downwards Skill-limit of 15-20 would be ok, i think. And if nothing else is found in the next x minutes the downwards limit will dropped for the waiting player.

2. The option to find a game, a friend could play with, too, would be great. =)
I think of the following procedure:
A friend could invite me to find a ranked game ( *ranking-system-name-here* ) to play with him.
Due to custom upwards-Skill-limit I am allowed to play with him (my upwards-limit is set to the difference to my friend) and we are placed in a room, waiting for other players.

3. What do you meant should be happening, when a game was found. I mean: Not everyone likes every map.
Will there be a "Message-Box" asking if the Map is ok?
I recommend you to give the player the option to find any map, to find and ask, or to look up in ones favourites-list.
I really liked your idea of liking/disliking maps: You would motivate the players to use that function!

4. Will it be possible, that a player from the one ranking plays against a player of the other ranking, if the map is allowed by both?
I think there are time - mostly in the late evening-hours - when there are to less players online and with that to less open games to be selective.

5. Will there be also a shortAVA, middleAVA, longAVA ? .... ohmmmmm .. maybe to much at first.

6. BTW: what do you mean by "may also result in ranking ...". I thought the lost skill is punishment enough for the one who left. ;)
Also there is a bunch of people, whose routers just don't want them to play anymore.

7. Did I understand you right, that all the skills will be cleared? Or will there be a recalculation?

Very good idea all in all! Never thought of that before. ^^

Ich mag die Aussicht nicht, nur mit ähnlich geskillten Personen zu spielen, weil ich im jetzigen System mit "high-levels" spielen kann und ich auch mit mehr Skillpunkten belohnt werde.

Wie wäre es, wenn ihr das wie im Schach macht (DWZ):
http://www.fredwehner.de/schach/regeln.html#kap2.5

Der Alterscoeffizient könnte irgendwie von den Exp. ersetzt werden...

[krunx]

Ich mag die Aussicht nicht, nur mit ähnlich geskillten Personen zu spielen, weil ich im jetzigen System mit "high-levels" spielen kann und ich auch mit mehr Skillpunkten belohnt werde.

Wie wäre es, wenn ihr das wie im Schach macht (DWZ):
http://www.fredwehner.de/schach/regeln.html#kap2.5

Das Schachsystem haben wir längst! (DWZ= moderneres Elosystem)

Auch mit der 400P+- Grenze?
Und vorallem die Erstzahlberechnung?

[krunx]

Es gibt keine Erstzahlenberechnung, da die hier andes als im Schach zu leicht manipulierbar ist. Das spielt aber in der Praxis momentan keine Rolle, ob ich mit fester Zahl starte (1000) oder eben mit Erstzahlenauswertung.

True, those are problems with the current system. I had a few weeks where I was pretty bummed because I kept losing at this game, and my skill level was there to show it. But because of that I kept powering through and got loads better. The skill level is one of my favorite things about this game. In the recent update, your skill doesn't show if it's under 1000 either, so for those who don't care, they can play casually and have it not really affect them if they lose. I think it's great how it is, even with the stated problems.

Ok personally i think the initial idea although correct in its line of thought is not essentially a good idea for Creep TD because its regular player base is not large enough yet.

However i do like the idea of having a play off every season.

Or even having scheduled/ranked/league single player and multi (coop and 2v2) games.

[Australis]

I really like the concept of matches with people of a similar skill level.

The only problem is that if someone is playing with a twink you have to play against him and can't leave.

I very much agree with Pez on this point. If something could be setup to impede/hinder twinks i think it would be for the best.

[dcode]

For now I'll put the matchmaking idea back to the future box. I'll get to that later.

[krunx]

I think a 1 vs. 1 - Matchmaking would be a nice thing.

[dcode]

A layout idea: Normal games as usual + ranked ladder selection.

ranked-layout.jpg (155.99 KiB) Viewed 5759 times

imho it needs to be that prominently placed because matchmaking will work only if there are enough players participating.

[dcode]

Some limitations:
- A certain amount of XP is required to play ranked
- Twinks will be explicitly prohibited and, if still used, result in a complete ban of all that players accounts from ranked games

hmm. banning always leads to a lot of administrative work, and additionally a lot pf potential errors. those errors have been discussed in other threads (family members, shared LAN, shared PC etc....)

i'd favour an approach which makes it unattractive to use twinks
OR
(skill calculation) rules which make it irrelevant if twinks are used (dont have any in mind right now tho....)

[Rambo196]

Sieg und Sieg sind nicht immer das Gleiche. Dementsprechend sollte auch ein 1-5 Sekundensieg weniger bringen als ein klarer Sieg. Es wäre schön, wenn dies noch umgesetzt werden könnte, besonders im 1 vs 1. Einfach die creeps nicht explodieren lassen und das game noch 10 sec weiterlaufen lassen, ka ob das so einfach zu machen ist.

[krunx]

Sieg und Sieg sind nicht immer das Gleiche. Dementsprechend sollte auch ein 1-5 Sekundensieg weniger bringen als ein klarer Sieg. Es wäre schön, wenn dies noch umgesetzt werden könnte, besonders im 1 vs 1. Einfach die creeps nicht explodieren lassen und das game noch 10 sec weiterlaufen lassen, ka ob das so einfach zu machen ist.

Selbst danach kannst du es nicht bemessen! Es gibt klare Games, wo man schlicht alles abreißt und einen Phönix schickt. Der andere schickt meinetwegen 3 Sharks und würde doch schlicht 4 Sekunden später töten. Hätte aber niemals die Chance noch 1. zu werden. Andersrum probiert jemand den Phönix mit mehr Einkommen zu deffen und scheitern, dann wäre er im Nachteil.

Deine Grundidee ist zwar nett, aber nicht in die Praxis umzusetzen, fürchte ich. Es ist aber auch gar nicht notwendig da etwas zu ändern. Im Einzelfall ist ein knapp verlorenes Spiel immer ärgerlich, aber auf lange Sicht wird man auch mal knapp gewinnen und es wird sich alles statistisch ausgleichen!

Nur weil eine Idee in Spielen wie legue of legends funktioniert, heißt es nicht, dass sie 1/1 übertragbar ist in andere spiele wie creeptd.
ihr scheint einige probleme die dieses matchmarking system mit sich bringt nicht zu bedenken. creeptd findet nicht auf nur EINER map statt, sondern auf hunderten (tunier maps weniger), ich fasse mal zsm wie das vorgestellt wird:
ich klicke auf "search for ranked game" ich werde in eine warteschleife gesetzt und werde nach einiger zeit mit spielern in meinem skill level zusammen gebracht und in einen raum geworfen, wer bestimmt jetzt welche map/modus usw? das funktioniert doch nur wenn der server eine map und ein modus auslost, sofern nicht etwas bestimmtes vom server(?!) festgelegt ist. wird dieses ausgeloste spiel dann in der lobby angezeigt? du sagst es startet sofort, was ist dann mit zuschauern? wie kann ich dann noch mit andern bestimmten spielern zusammen spielern (ohne custom games)

also da gibts es noch viel mehr probleme , deswegen finde ich die idee nicht umsetzungsfähig.

aber wo wir gerade beim theme aus anderen spielen übernehmen sind, in starcraft und league of legends gibt es ja jetzt ein ligen system, wie wäre es das wir das auch einführen? dann gibt es für spiele keine skill begrenzung mehr, sondern nur noch eine ligenbegrenzung, man ist zb in der liga 3, und wenn man ein spiel erstellt ist das nur für spieler der liga 2-4 wer in liga 1 oder 5 ist kann dann nicht rein. somit hat man einmal ein anreiz in höheren ligen aufzusteigen und das problem von twinks wird wieder verringert da er nicht in jedes spiel reinkommt.